Mathematics Chat

Gender Gaps at the Top in Math and Science

Psychologists Stephen J. Ceci and Wendy M. Williams, authors of The Mathematics of Sex, discuss why gender gaps remain at the highest levels of mathematics and science careers, even as girls seem to have caught up with boys in those subjects.

Chat: Gender Gaps at the Top in Math and Science

Tuesday, November 3, 3 p.m. Eastern time

Studies show that on most standardized tests, girls caught up to boys in mathematics and science years ago, yet women remain far outnumbered at the highest professional levels in those fields. In our nation’s universities, for example, men occupy 93 percent of tenure-track positions in mathematically oriented fields. Why? Psychologists Stephen J. Ceci and Wendy M. Williams, authors of The Mathematics of Sex, lead an in-depth discussion.

Related Story:

• Researchers Mull STEM Gender Gap (June 17, 2009)

Guests:
Stephen J. Ceci, endowed chair in developmental psychology, Cornell University
Wendy M. Williams, professor of human development, Cornell University
Debra Viadero, associate editor, Education Week, moderated this chat.

Gender Gaps at the Top in Math and Science

(11/03/2009)

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9:17

Edweek Producer: Jennifer:
Today’s chat, “Gender Gaps at the Top in Math and Science,” is open for questions. Please start submitting them now.

The chat will begin at 3 p.m. Eastern today. Thank you for joining us.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 9:17 Edweek Producer: Jennifer

2:58

Steve Ceci:
Teachers and counselors can assist female students by exposing them to the great variety of excellent careers in STEM fields. Surveys indicate that young girls have little knowledge about what someone who has a degre in enginnering can do.

So, the strategies at this age are mainly informational, rather than cognitive. Bear in mind that there are few sex differences in the number and type of math courses taken in middle and high school, and girls get better grades in them, including in math.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 2:58 Steve Ceci

3:00

Debra Viadero:
Good afternoon and welcome to Education Week’s live chat on the persistent gender imbalances at the top in mathematics and mathematically-related sciences. I’m Debra Viadero, an associate editor here at Education Week, and I’ll be your moderator today. Our guests today are Stephen J. Ceci and Wendy M. Williams who are the authors of a new book on this topic titled The Mathematics of Sex: How Biology and Society Conspire to Limit Talented Women and Girls. I’m going to begin by asking each of you to introduce yourself to our readers. Mr. Ceci?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:00 Debra Viadero

3:01

Wendywilliams:
Young girls and women growing up in homes that stress “traditional” female career paths are certainly at a disadvantage. These girls have to have the courage to pursue interests that often are not shared by their mothers and other women in their lives. Role models can be a big help here--either scientisst of the same ethnic background or actual members of the community who can be profiled. Teachers can use social meling by havign young women read about and do projects on successful scientificaly-oriented women from working class backgrounds...and there are plenty of us!

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:01 Wendywilliams

3:02

Steve Ceci:
The role of parental expectations is controversial. At one time, it was commonly believed that sex differences in paental expectations accounted for the dearth of girls in STEM fields. But in our book we review three recent studies that do not accord with this claim. We are not ready to jettison the role of parental influence, but we do think that it will require more and better support than heretofore provided by proponents.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:02 Steve Ceci

3:04

Wendywilliams:
Hi this is wendy....I agree that parental expectations can be particularly limiting for girls, but this is one area in which an individual teacher, mentor, youth leader, or religious leader can make a huge difference. Contradicting messages form the home is a bad strategy, it seem wiser to point out alternatives and offer role models for the alternatives.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:04 Wendywilliams

3:05

[Comment From sjcechsjcech: ]
How difficult do you think it would be for academic and professional STEM fields to retool their images in order to attract more young women?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:05 sjcech

3:07

Wendywilliams:
Hi this is wendy. It might not be difficult in theory but there is considerable opposition from current incumbents, which makes it difficult in practice. Overcoming reluctance of those currently in sernior positions is very difficult. To some extent, as they migrate or die off, it may become more doable. :-)

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:07 Wendywilliams

3:07

Debra Viadero:
Wendy,
Can you answer the question from sjcech? Thanks

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:07 Debra Viadero

3:08

Debra Viadero:
Steve,
Would you answer this question from sean:

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:08 Debra Viadero

3:08

[Comment From SeanSean: ]
There was a study that came out last year by the U of Wisconsin that found that European and Asian nations do a better job of identifying and promoting the skills of very talented girls in math than the U.S. does. Do you believe this is due to gender stereotyping of girls when they’re in school, or some other factor.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:08 Sean

3:10

Steve Ceci:
Hi, this is steve ceci. [to sean] the notion that gender stereotypes are responsible for the paucity of women in math-intensive STEM fields is problematic. Notwithstanding the large amount of research showing that activating gender stereotypes can lower math performance, there are data showing that some of the most gender stereotypes countries have the highest proportion of female computer scientists and mathematicians. For ex., Turkey, Romania, and Russia have better ratios of females-to-males in many STEM fields, despite being notably less egalitarian than the U.K. and U.S.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:10 Steve Ceci

3:11

Debra Viadero:
Readers,
We seem to be having some technical difficulties. Steve, would you pick up this next question from Debbie P?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:11 Debra Viadero

3:11

[Comment From Debbie PDebbie P: ]
Did you explore the role of mentors when gaining enrollment and retention of females in the dominantly male atmosphere of math and science. If so, what were your findings? Do students respond more positively to same sex mentors?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:11 Debbie P

3:12

[Comment From Mimi LufkinMimi Lufkin: ]
I do lots of gender equity training and in many cases teachers want to “blame” others for this issue or consider it out of their control. Does your book contain studies that highlight the teachers role? Can you summarize where their sphere of influence is best? I can’t wait to read about the parental studies as this is an area where lots of blame gets placed.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:12 Mimi Lufkin

3:13

Debra Viadero:
Thanks, Mimi. That’s a lot of questions. Wendy, can you read this panel in order to answer her?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:13 Debra Viadero

3:15

Debra Viadero:
Steve,
Can you pick up the question from Debbie P above?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:15 Debra Viadero

3:17

Wendywilliams:
Hi Mimi, one issue is (obviously) that teachers are themselves a product of our culture and so often they do not see subtle or tacit ways that they may encourage girls to have different interests or expectations from boys. Our book does talk a bit about the role of social modeling and also about the possible role of stereotype threat, which is the fear women have of confirming a negative stereotype about their math/science ability. There is no way teachers can overcome all or even most of the subliminal negative messages girls get, but they can perhaps counteract at least some of these messages.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:17 Wendywilliams

3:18

Steve Ceci:
[to Debbie P This is another fascinating and controverisal topic. I say controversial because not everyone agrees that same-sex mentors are importtant, though some studies do. For ex., women may huge strides in fields such as veterinary medicine (where they now account for fully 76% of vet students!) during the 1980s when the faculties of Vet schools were largely male. That did not seem to impede the flood of women in this field. Similar examples can be given for others fields in whcih women may huge strides while few male role models existed. On the other hand, there are seveal surveys that ask women in STEM fields how important same-sex mentors are, and they tend to say they are important--thogh not uniformly. Some repsond that having a god, nurturent mentor is very important, but not necessarily the same sex. So, I think the jury is still out on this.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:18 Steve Ceci

3:18

Debra Viadero:
Wendy,
Thanks for your answer. Here’s a new question from “guest.”

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:18 Debra Viadero

3:18

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]
hello, all, I run an after-school STEM program for girls. I would love to know what the panelists feel are skill sets that are necessary for a girl to be successful in a STEM career?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:18 Guest

3:20

Debra Viadero:
Steve,
Sean has an interesting question about the age at which girls are most vulnerable to negative stereotypes. Can you answer him?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:20 Debra Viadero

3:20

[Comment From SeanSean: ]
Is there one particular age when girls might be especially vulnerable to negative stereotypes about not liking or being able to succeed in “STEM fields” -- as in, would they be vulnerable in elementary or middle school, or in high school, as they’re getting closer to making college major and career choices?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:20 Sean

3:21

Wendywilliams:
Hi Mimi again, one other point is that as older and more traditional teachers retire, the younger teachers who replace them are likely to have more gender-progressive views. For example, my two young daughters attend a public elementary school with several male teachers,and one of my daughters had a male teacher for third and fourth grade. This represents a new culture in elementary school, and defeminizes the teaching career. It is ideal when young children see both genders doing a given job--this way it seemsto them that the job is open to anyone.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:21 Wendywilliams

3:21

Debra Viadero:
I have a question for either Wendy or Steve. You spent three years and reviewed more than 400 studies for your book. What prompted you to undertake this research question?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:21 Debra Viadero

3:25

Wendywilliams:
Wendy here...now that is an easy question....we have three daughters! The oldest just graduated with a B.S. and M.S. in engineering,and she was always very math-savvy. Our younger daughters are also sceince oriented. Thus, our interest is far more than academic. ON another note--the dramatic changes that occur when a scientist witha job like mine has children prompted me to wonder about the role of free versus coerced “choices” in persistence in STEM fields. How many women leave these fields because they must do the bulk of childcare? This may have nothing to do with ability, but rather with lifestyle demands. It all seemed to be worth a book. :-

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:25 Wendywilliams

3:27

Debra Viadero:
Steve,
Christianne has a question that is right up your alley. See below:

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:27 Debra Viadero

3:27

[Comment From Christianne CorbettChristianne Corbett: ]
A number of people have written lately about how girls just aren’t interested in STEM careers. What do you see as the most important components to interesting girls in STEM fields?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:27 Christianne Corbett

3:28

Steve Ceci:
[to Sean] Research has demonstrated negative effects of activating gender stereotypes in middle school, high school, and college. It can as easy as asking students to identify their gender before they answer math questions. But, and this is a big BUT, if such stereotypes impede girls from doing well in these situations, we must keep in mind that girls do better than boys at all of these ages--they take just as many math courses and they get better grades in them than boys. Forty-six percent of all college math majors are females and they, too, get better grades in comparable math courses than do males. So, whatever effect stereotypes may have, they are not deterring girls and women from taking as many math and science courses and doing at leat as well as males in them.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:28 Steve Ceci

3:30

Wendywilliams:
Hi to Guest.....good for you for running a STEM program...from my point of view, I would stress creative uses of math applied ot real-world problem solving, authentic science that also solves everyday problems, and then add in some discussions of and projects built around scientist role models from ethnic and socioeconomic groups comparable to the youth in the classes you teach. The kids may be attending because their parents force them--so try to give them some informaiton they will use and find intrinsically interesting. ALSO--have the kids play math games like Set that help with mental manipulation, this cannot hurt and it is fun!

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:30 Wendywilliams

3:31

Debra Viadero:
Thanks, Wendy. Can you pick up Stacey’s question next?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:31 Debra Viadero

3:31

[Comment From StaceyStacey: ]
Do you think girls may have a lack of interest in STEM classes because their teachers are predominately male?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:31 Stacey

3:35

Wendywilliams:
Hi Stacey! Yes I do think teacher gender can matter, especially if male teachers stress the “maleness” of science occupations (on the one hand) and stress competitive classroom environments (on the other). Real science as practiced by scientists does not involve 100-item multiple choice tests, it is instead a creative and often collaboratve pursuit. Sometimes, women “get” this fact better than do men, and sometimes male teachers forget it. But these are just tendencies, and some men are amazingly good mentors for young girls.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:35 Wendywilliams

3:35

Debra Viadero:
Here’s an interesting question on single-gender math and science classes. I’ll offer it to whomever wants to answer it.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:35 Debra Viadero

3:36

[Comment From David CDavid C: ]
Do you think that single-gender math/science classes could provide opportunities to address possible specific needs (especially if it isn’t due in large part to parent expectations?) thanks

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:36 David C

3:38

Steve Ceci:
[to Christianne C] Yes, indeed. Numerous surveys show that beginning in middle school when boys and girls are asked about their career aspirations, girls are far less likely than boys to say they want to be engineers, mathematicians, or physicists. Instead, girls say they want to be doctors, lawyers, veterinarians, etc. Some have suggested that these girls need to be given realistic career information about the many things, say, engineers, can do with their training. As a father of three daughters, I am all for giving realistic career information to girls. (My oldest daughter has a graduate degree in engineering.) But it doesn’t bother me if my two younger daughters, after hearing about the possibilities of engineers, say they prefer to be, say, doctors or lawyers. As long as they make informed chocies and no one discrimonates against them merely because they are girls, I am satisfied.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:38 Steve Ceci

3:38

Debra Viadero:
Steve, sjcech has another question on future trends in the field.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:38 Debra Viadero

3:38

[Comment From sjcechsjcech: ]
With trends as they are, do you see the gender proportion in STEM fields changing significantly over the next, say, decade, or are we talking about multidecades?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:38 sjcech

3:40

Wendywilliams:
Hi David C....one issue is that girls get HIGHER GRADES in math and science throughout school......so they actually kick boys’ butts in this way. Some people swear by their experiences in single-gender schools.......but the data are mixed. the impressions may be important, and single-sex classes connote that girls need not compete with boys. In some ways this might help shy girls, but again, girls do get higher grades.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:40 Wendywilliams

3:41

Debra Viadero:
The next question is from Shameek.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:41 Debra Viadero

3:41

[Comment From Shameek RobinsonShameek Robinson: ]
Would you say that young women face a double whammy - not only pressures and stereotypes from within the home, but also from popular culture and society? How can positive role models, mentors, and messages permeate this “double whammy” and provide not only the additional alternatives, but make them attractive and appealing?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:41 Shameek Robinson

3:42

Steve Ceci:
[to David] There are several studies of single gender math classes, and they generally provide some (albeint slight) evidence in favor of your hunch. But as I posted above, girls in mixed sex classes outperform boys in virtually all subjects, including math and science. So, being in classes with boys is not deterring girls from high performance. The problem seems to be two-fold--fewer girls prefer math-intensive careers even when you statistically control for math ability, and fewer of the women who major in math-intensive fields segue into math-intensive graduate training. And, finally, a smaller proportion of those who do complete graduate training in math-based fields segue into academic posts in these fields. The evidence sugegsts that these latter “pipeline” issues have little to do with being in mixed sex classes.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:42 Steve Ceci

3:43

Wendywilliams:
For sjcech.....You will definitely see changes because the all-male old guard is dying off and retiring. New hires are often female. The key is whether women will persist in STEM ..right now they leave in their mid-30s to have kids, and often never return. You will see demographic changes, BUT the leaders in the field will likely remain more male than the lower levels due to attrition.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:43 Wendywilliams

3:44

Debra Viadero:
This question is for either one of you from me. In your book, you explore three possible explanations for the gender gaps among the most talented STEM students. They are: innate or biological differences, cultural barriers, and the lifestyle choices that women themselves make. Which of these explanations turned out to be most important?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:44 Debra Viadero

3:46

Debra Viadero:
Cheryl offers an interesting theory below. Would either of you like to comment?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:46 Debra Viadero

3:46

[Comment From CherylCheryl: ]
I have a theory and I’m curious if you think there’s anything to it or if I’m way off base. I think that most kids at one time or another encounter an adult (teacher, parent, uncle,...) who tells them either directly or indirectly that they can’t do something or they’ll never be any good at something. My theory is that boys are better at shaking that off and pursuing their interests, while girls are more sensitive and therefore likely to internalize the criticism, effectively making it a prophecy. Any merit here, or should I keep my day job?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:46 Cheryl

3:47

Debra Viadero:
While we’re waiting for a response, we have time for one more question. Last chance, audience!

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:47 Debra Viadero

3:49

Wendywilliams:
To Shameek, this is a very wise question. Girls’ and women’s experiences and decisions about careers are shaped by a multitude of forces, many of which are questionable if a girl wants to become a scientist. Helping girls to view themselves not as objects of attraction but rather as doers of meaningful activity is a challenge. Involvement with mentors or contact with role models portrayed in literature or biography can help. Parents can help by steering daughters away form friends with the unfortunate emphases on looks rather than accomplishments. This is tough but clearly worth trying.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:49 Wendywilliams

3:51

Debra Viadero:
Wendy,
This question from Vini Nair is addressed to you.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:51 Debra Viadero

3:51

[Comment From Vini NairVini Nair: ]
I’d love for Wendy to finish about women dropping out mid-career. any relevant research as to why? could it only be about life-style changes (ie having kids, etc). Are there ways we can inform girls of this before embarking on such career paths?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:51 Vini Nair

3:51

Wendywilliams:
Cheryl--quit the day job, I agree that women and girls are more prone to reduce their estimate of themselves if encouraged to do so. Girls are more apt to rethink answers on tests and change answers from right to wrong. Girls question themselves more and have lower confidence in several ways...thus we can work on this issue with our girls, reminding them that their reaction may be understandable BUT it is stilla choice that they make either to limit themselves or not.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:51 Wendywilliams

3:53

Debra Viadero:
Steve,
Can I give you this last follow-up question from Christianne?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:53 Debra Viadero

3:53

[Comment From Christianne CorbettChristianne Corbett: ]
Wendy says that women in STEM fields leave in their 30’s to have kids and don’t return. How do the numbers of women who leave STEM fields to have kids compare to women who leave other fields?

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:53 Christianne Corbett

3:53

[Comment From CherylCheryl: ]
p.s. - my day job is engineering!

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:53 Cheryl

3:54

Steve Ceci:
[to Deborah] Yes in our book we examined all three families of explanations that you listed. Specifically, we examined claims that sex differences in math-bsed careers are the result of: ability differences that favor males in mathematics and spatial ability, biases and barriers that impede women’s progress in these fields, and career/lifestyle preferences that propel women into other fields.
Our general conclusion: The imbalance in math-intensive careers cannot be accounted for by sex differences in mathematical and spatial ability that have been reported between male and females. We concluded this because although the ratio of males-to-females in the top 1% of math aptitude scores is 2:1, there are nowhere near as many as one third of female engineers, physicists, mathematicians, and chemists. So, it cannot be attributed to math ability differences or else there’d be many more women in these fields. Nor can they be attributed to current biases and barriers, though past cohort discrepancies may be explained in such terms. We concluded this because for the past decade or more women have been hired for tenure-track positions at rates roughly comparable to their proportions in the Ph.D. pool--and more often than not, at rates slightly above their proportions. Wwe concluded that the single biggest factor in women’s underrepresentation in these fields is that women opt out of such careers at a fairly young age: In surveys of adolescent girls, very few say they desire to be an engineer or physicist, preferring instead to be medical doctors, veterinarians, and lawyers. Although females earn a large portion of baccalaureate degrees in all fields of science, including math-intensive fields (e.g., 46% of mathematics majors are females), disproportionately fewer women enter graduate school in these fields, and fewer of the women who go on to earn Ph.D.s apply for academic jobs. There is no consensus yet as to why fewer women earning PhDs in math-intensive fields apply for tenure track positions, but one reason that women in all fields opt out of academia has to do with a desire for flexibility: Women want some job flexibility to raise children, and the timing of childrearing coincides with the most demanding period of an academic career, such as trying to get tenure, or working exorbitant hours to get promoted.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:54 Steve Ceci

3:55

Wendywilliams:
Vini--Women do so much more than men when we look at families with kids..the data are very clear and after reading the results of surveys of women’s duties across all life domains, i am left wondering how women survive. You ask if we can inform women about the upcoming choice they need to make, which is whether or not to have a family. We certianly can tell women to plan for these life events, BUT children still remain a largely female affair with a female cost. One idea is to allow a childcare part-time work schedule that would last for ten years and then segue back to fulltime. Most careers won’t allow this now, but why not??

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:55 Wendywilliams

3:57

Wendywilliams:
Again to Vini.....one outcome of all of our discussons may be a welcome change in some aspects of science careers that have always been taken for granted! EG--create more flexible means for women to make contributions across the lifespan while having a family.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:57 Wendywilliams

3:58

Debra Viadero:
These are great questions and wonderfully detailed responses. We’re waiting for one more answer and then we’ll wrap our chat for today.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 3:58 Debra Viadero

4:00

Wendywilliams:
Hi--women leave law ansd medicine also, very frequently, and often do not become leaders in these fields either.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 4:00 Wendywilliams

4:02

Debra Viadero:
That ends our chat for today. Thanks to my guests, Steve Ceci and Wendy Williams, and thanks to all our readers. A transcipt will be available shortly.

Tuesday November 3, 2009 4:02 Debra Viadero

4:02

Edweek Producer: Jennifer:
Make sure to check out Education Week‘s other upcoming chats at www.edweek.org/go/chats

Tuesday November 3, 2009 4:02 Edweek Producer: Jennifer

4:02